User:WinterRose/Racial Gains - Revision history

WinterRose: /* Testing mage modifiers on warriors */

2012-12-18T14:15:07Z

Testing mage modifiers on warriors

WinterRose at 00:33, 19 January 2012

2012-01-19T00:33:53Z

WinterRose: updated conclusion

2012-01-19T00:14:02Z

updated conclusion

WinterRose: removed wrong expectation

2012-01-19T00:00:19Z

removed wrong expectation

WinterRose: moved Racial Gains to User:WinterRose/Racial Gains: Experiment failed, sigh.

2012-01-18T23:48:44Z

moved Racial Gains to User:WinterRose/Racial Gains: Experiment failed, sigh.

WinterRose: updated with more data.

2012-01-18T23:35:39Z

updated with more data.

Show changes

WinterRose: orc update

2012-01-18T18:12:10Z

orc update

WinterRose: removed superflous column

2012-01-17T21:34:34Z

removed superflous column

WinterRose: created page

2012-01-17T21:24:49Z

created page

New page

Racial Gains is an ongoing effort to gauge modifiers behind racial statistics - i.e. which race gains what stats upon leveling, and how they fare compared to human. These numbers, even more than those in pages on racial [[Racial Archery Modifier|archery]], [[Racial Damage Modifier|damage]] or [[Racial Stealth Modifier|stealth]] modifiers are entirely unofficial, and can only be considered as a '''very''' rough rule of thumb.

Some are even evidently false, and this has been noted. If you notice more faults, feel free to edit them.

== Gains in general ==

Gains are a result of a ''racial modifier'' (hp and mana, separate modifiers), as well as the ''con and int modifier'', applied onto a human set of gains. These two modifiers are separate and both factor into the actual gains. Unfortunately we cannot see these without running every race with an identical constitution and intelligence score and then deducing the numbers out of the results, something that is probably too much of an effort.

In the following tables these are fused into a single '''modifier''', that compares the score to a human, and by definition this number cannot be the correct factor used in gain generation. However it is an usable approximation.

* How useful are these modifiers? Do they apply to 999 stats?

Saying that a giant warrior has 75% more HP than a human warrior is probably false due to worship gains which apply evenly, devotion bonuses, rounding and probably other reasons. However the modifier *should* be valid within 10% margin of error. While 10% margin is actually huge, remember these are rough guidelines and carry on.

== Gain generation ==

* All runs were done with mages ran from level 2 to level 50. This is done since mage hp and mana modifiers are not as skewed as warrior or wizard modifiers, and present a usable middle ground.
* All characters were leveled with fully boosted stats with training and leveling gear.
* All characters are leveled as atheists. Any worship would bring additional factors which can hardly be correctly accounted for, especially in these short runs.

== Errors ==

Please read all the disclaimers:

* Reasons for the wide inaccuracies of this data are threefold:
*# Sample size in most cases is 1. Without at least 10 passes there cannot be any semblance of serious statistical analysis, and it is unlikely anyone will make 10 atheist trog mages. This is not actually relevant as purpose of this page are the rough modifiers, not projected stats. For '''far''' more accurate information on projected stats, use actual hero 999 or lord 1 data, and try to deduct worship gains.
*# Rounding affects gains differently at hero than at lowmort where it doesn't occur, and also keep in mind that hero stats are based on boosted attributes, which are then halved. The ''modifiers'' should remain even through rounding, but might be a bit different at hero. Irregardless, see 1.
*# Mana is also much more variable than hp, so it is likely some of the characters had a streak of bad or good gains and not enough time in the 48 levels to make up for the inaccuracies. Multiple runs would account for this but they were not performed. See 1.
* Where modifiers are not directly derived from data, some rounding had occurred. For example, Elf HP modifier is more likely -22%, and Half-Elf about -18%, but these were rounded to -20% and -15% respectively, etc.

== Gain lists ==

All comments to the [[Talk:Racial Gains|talk]] page please, and feel free to update the tables with your own data.

{| border="2" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" align="center"
|-
! colspan=2 | Legend
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#9464b8;" | Divine
| style="background-color:#9464b8;" | 4
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#c0c0ff;" | Legendary
| style="background-color:#c0c0ff;" | 3
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#ddffdd;" | Great
| style="background-color:#ddffdd;" | 2
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#ffffbb;" | Good
| style="background-color:#ffffbb;" | 1
|- align="center"
| Average
| 0
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#ffdddd;" | Below Average
| style="background-color:#ffdddd;" | -1
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#ffbbbb;" | Bad
| style="background-color:#ffbbbb;" | -2
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#ffaaaa;" | Terrible
| style="background-color:#ffaaaa;" | -3
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#ff8888;" | Ugh
| style="background-color:#ff8888;" | -4
|}

{| class="sortable" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" align="center" width="800"
|+ <big>'''[[:Category: Creatable Races|Creatable Races]] Gains'''</big>
|-
!  Race
! style="background:#efefef;" |  [[Hit Points|HP]]
! style="background:#efefef;" |  HP/lvl
! style="background:#efefef;" |  HP Modifier
! style="background:#efefef;" |  [[Mana Points|MP]]
! style="background:#efefef;" |  MP/lvl
! style="background:#efefef;" |  MP Modifier
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Centaur]]
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 539
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 10.6
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +20%
| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 473
| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 7.55
! style="background:#ddffdd;"| +40%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Deep Gnome]]
| 460
| 8.95
! 0%
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 412
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 6.3
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +15%?
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Draconian]]
| style="background:#c0c0ff;"| 650
| style="background:#c0c0ff;"| 12.9
! style="background:#c0c0ff;"| +45%
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 422
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 6.5
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +20%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Drow]]
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 370
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 7
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -20%
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 398
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 6
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +10%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Duergar]]
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 516
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 10.1
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +10%
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 343
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 4.85
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -10%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Dwarf]]
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 499
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 9.8
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +10%
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 343
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 4.85
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -10%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Elf]]
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 366
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 7
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -20%
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 408
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 6.2
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +10%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Ent]]
|
|
!
|
|
!
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Firedrake]]
| N/A
| N/A
! N/A
| N/A
| N/A
! N/A
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Gargoyle]]
| style="background:#c0c0ff;"| 669
| style="background:#c0c0ff;"| 13.3
! style="background:#c0c0ff;"| +50%
| 361
| 5.2
! -5%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Giant]]
| style="background:#9f64b8;"| 783
| style="background:#9f64b8;"| 15.7
! style="background:#9f64b8;"| +75%
| style="background:#ffaaaa;"| 271
| style="background:#ffaaaa;"| 3.35
! style="background:#ffaaaa;"| -40%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Gnome]]
| 459
| 8.95
! 0%
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 410
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 6.25
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +15%?
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Goblin]]
| style="background:#ffbbbb;"| 310
| style="background:#ffbbbb;"| 5.85
! style="background:#ffbbbb;"| -35%
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 320
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 4.4
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -20%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Halfling]]
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 366
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 7
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -20%
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 411
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 6.25
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +15%?
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Half-Elf]]
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 381
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 7.3
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -15%
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 395
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 5.95
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +10%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Half-Orc]]
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 510
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 10
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +10%
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 321
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 4.4
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -20%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Harpy]]
| 460
| 8.95
! 0%
| 391
| 5.85
! +5%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Human]]
| 458
| 8.9
! 0%
| 372
| 5.45
! 0%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Imp]]
| N/A
| N/A
! N/A
| N/A
| N/A
! N/A
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Kobold]]
| style="background:#ffaaaa;"| 261
| style="background:#ffaaaa;"| 4.8
! style="background:#ffaaaa;"| -45%
| style="background:#ffaaaa;"| 276
| style="background:#ffaaaa;"| 3.45
! style="background:#ffaaaa;"| -40%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Kzinti]]
| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 567
| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 11.2
! style="background:#ddffdd;"| +25%
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 414
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 6.3
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +15%?
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Lizardmen]]
| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 565
| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 11.2
! style="background:#ddffdd;"| +25%
| 388
| 5.8
! +5%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Ogres]]
| style="background:#c0c0ff;"| 700
| style="background:#c0c0ff;"| 13.95
! style="background:#c0c0ff;"| +55%
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 331
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 4.6
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -15%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Orc]]
| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 556
| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 10.95
! style="background:#ddffdd;"| +25%
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 343
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 4.85
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -10%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Troglodyte]]
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 542
| style="background:#ffffbb;"| 10.7
! style="background:#ffffbb;"| +20%
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 342
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 4.8
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -10%
|}

Some comments on above numbers:
* HP are generally a stable statistic and vary much less than mana.
* Giants probably have more mana than Kobolds in the long run. Must have been a poor set of gains.
* Half-Orc run ended with 20 lass mana than an Orc run. This was suspicious, so it was ran again and resulted in identical mana. Maybe the Orc had a set of good gains? Needs to be checked.
* Half-Elves have less mana than Elves or Drow, generally, but here they have near-identical mana. Probably a good set of gains.
* Gnome, Deep Gnome, Kzinti and Halfling all received more mana than either Elves or Drow. Being suspicious, Elves and Drow were rerun for virtually the same gains. The elven races are expected to have more mana in the end, naturally, so these 4 races have suspicious results.
* Ent was not run. Run an Ent in your own free time. For the TNL, not for the gains.
* Evolution races make no sense in the above context.

{| class="sortable" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" align="center" width="800"
|+ <big>'''[[:Category: Remort Races|Remort Races]] Gains'''</big>
|-
!  Race
! style="background:#efefef;" |  [[Hit Points|HP]]
! style="background:#efefef;" |  HP/lvl
! style="background:#efefef;" |  HP Factor
! style="background:#efefef;" |  [[Mana Points|MP]]
! style="background:#efefef;" |  MP/lvl
! style="background:#efefef;" |  MP Factor
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Demonseed]]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Dragon]]
| style="background:#c0c0ff;"| 723
| style="background:#c0c0ff;"| 14.4
! style="background:#c0c0ff;"| +60%
| style="background:#c0c0ff;"| 489
| style="background:#c0c0ff;"| 7.9
! style="background:#c0c0ff;"| +45%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Golem]]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Griffon]]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[High Elf]]
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 398
| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 7.7
! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -15%
| style="background:#9f64b8;"| 514
| style="background:#9f64b8;"| 8.4
! style="background:#9f64b8;"| +55%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Hobgoblin]]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Minotaur]]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Miraar]]
| N/A
| N/A
! N/A
| N/A
| N/A
! N/A
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Sprite]]
| style="background:#ff8888;"| 191
| style="background:#ff8888;"| 3.35
! style="background:#ff8888;"| -60%
| style="background:#9f64b8;"| 504
| style="background:#9f64b8;"| 8.2
! style="background:#9f64b8;"| +50%
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Troll]]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|- align="center"
| style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Tuataur]]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|}

Some comments:
* HiE and Sprite have in fact identical mana gains (compared 999 wizards , the two of which had identical gains within 30 mana - about 7190), so in this scenario they have a same modifier, it's just unclear if it's 50% or 55%.
* HiE and Sprite at first have suspiciously high gains compared to regular Elves, but since we know the two race are identical, and both Elves and Drow were ran 2 times, this is probably correct.
* Base Miraar gains are irrelevant.

[[Category: Characters]]
[[Category: Races]]

@@ Line 396: / Line 396: @@
 {| class="sortable" border="2" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" align="center" width="800"
-|+ <big>'''[[:Category: Remort Races|Remort Races]] Gains'''</big>
+|+ <big>'''Warrior vs. Mage Gains'''</big>
 |-
 ! &nbsp;Race

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 * class modifier,
 * ability modifier (con and  int for HP and MP),
-* unknown factors (code specifics, can be seen in the last part),
+that are (probably) all applied onto a human set of gains.
 These modifiers are separate and all factor into the actual gains. Unfortunately we cannot see these without running every race with an identical constitution and intelligence score and then deducing the numbers out of the results, something that is probably too much of an effort.
@@ Line 33: / Line 32: @@
 * Reasons for the wide inaccuracies of this data are threefold:
-*# Sample size in most cases is 1<sup>1</sup>. Without at least 10 passes there cannot be any semblance of serious statistical analysis, and it is unlikely anyone will make 10 atheist trog mages. This is not actually relevant as purpose of this page are the rough modifiers, not projected stats. For '''far''' more accurate information on projected stats, use actual hero 999 or lord 1 data, and try to deduct worship gains.
+*# Sample size in most cases is 1 run but with 48 gains it's not a bad average. However without at least 10 passes there cannot be any semblance of serious statistical analysis, and it is unlikely anyone will make 10 atheist trog mages. This is not actually relevant as purpose of this page are the rough modifiers, not projected stats. For '''far''' more accurate information on projected stats, use actual hero 999 or lord 1 data, and try to deduct worship gains.
 *# Rounding affects gains differently at hero than at lowmort where it doesn't occur, and also keep in mind that hero stats are based on boosted attributes, which are then halved. The ''modifiers'' should remain even through rounding, but might be a bit different at hero. Irregardless, see 1.
 *# Mana is also much more variable than hp, so it is likely some of the characters had a streak of bad or good gains and not enough time in the 48 levels to make up for the inaccuracies. Multiple runs would account for this but they were not performed. See 1.
 * Where modifiers are not directly derived from data, some rounding had occurred. For example, Elf HP modifier is more likely -22%, and Half-Elf about -18%, but these were rounded to -20% and -15% respectively, etc.
 == Gain lists ==

@@ Line 468: / Line 468: @@
 . Why is the difference in warrior gains so much smaller than in mage gains?
-: Warriors obviously get boosted stats with much less variance. Since they have same constitution as mages, constitution cannot be the governing reason. It's probably how things are coded, and cannot be explained via mathematics. Without such capping giants at 75% ratio could probably hit 18k HP at hero so it may be a sanity tool.
+: the likely reason is the CON bonus that is an integer and will have much more effect on smaller gains of a mage than on a warrior. This in turn leads to skewing of the ratio of gains for the low-HP races?
-. Why does the ratio of gains rise so fast for the low-HP races? Shouldn't warrior class gain modifier be '''static''' compared to mage class gain modifier?
+. Since there is so much difference in the factors, is this whole experiment worthless? Monks and other classes will likely have their own factors...
 : Probably. It's an insight into relative strengths and weaknesses of races compared to each other, even though it failed to produce a universal rule of thumb according to which racial gains could be calculated.
-[[Category: Characters]]
+A good set of data would be one that did NOT have the con or int modifiers...

@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 * How useful are these modifiers? Do they apply to 999 stats?
-Saying that a giant warrior has 75% more HP than a human warrior is probably false due to worship gains which apply evenly, devotion bonuses, rounding and probably other reasons. However the modifier *should* be valid within 10% margin of error. While 10% margin is actually huge, remember these are rough guidelines and carry on.
+As has been shown, the modifiers cannot be reasonably applied on other classes, so unless one builds a table of modifiers ''per classes'', they are likely not very useful.
 == Gain generation ==

← Older revision	Revision as of 23:48, 18 January 2012
(No difference)

@@ Line 253: / Line 253: @@
 |- align="center"
 | style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Orc]]
-| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 556
+| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 564
-| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 10.95
+| style="background:#ddffdd;"| 11.1
 ! style="background:#ddffdd;"| +25%
-| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 343
+| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 329
-| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 4.85
+| style="background:#ffdddd;"| 4.5
-! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -10%
+! style="background:#ffdddd;"| -20%
 |- align="center"
 | style="background-color:#efefef;" | [[Troglodyte]]

@@ Line 38: / Line 38: @@
 |- align="center"
 | style="background-color:#9464b8;" | Divine
 |- align="center"
 | style="background-color:#c0c0ff;" | Legendary
 |- align="center"
 | style="background-color:#ddffdd;" | Great
 |- align="center"
 | style="background-color:#ffffbb;" | Good
 |- align="center"
 | Average
 |- align="center"
 | style="background-color:#ffdddd;" | Below Average
 |- align="center"
 | style="background-color:#ffbbbb;" | Bad
 |- align="center"
 | style="background-color:#ffaaaa;" | Terrible
 |- align="center"
 | style="background-color:#ff8888;" | Ugh
 |}