Talk:Racial Stealth Modifier

is Tua stealth really equal to the best in the game, i.e, hlf, kzn and dsd? if true, aside from not making a lot of sense thematically, that's just one more bonus for an already over-twink race, in my opinion.--3nki 06:13, 14 December 2011 (CST)

For various races, as far as I know. Of course, this can be inaccurate:

• Drow have good stealth. (HELP STEALTH mentions this, though help files are known to be inaccurate).
• I believe Elf also have good stealth, though I'm not very sure about this.
• Orc have roughly human stealth (I seem to remember from some place that they have a 2% penalty)
• Grf have human stealth - as you'd expect from a large race.
• Tua have good stealth - but i'm skeptical that it is as good as kzn/hlf.

Belag 13:46, 14 December 2011 (CST)

i'm pretty sure also that both Elf and Drow have good stealth. i wouldn't be surprised if Orc have no stealth bonus but i doubt it's negative. Grf i've always heard have good stealth, as so many people have always had Grf rogues. however since most large races (esp. those with a racial dam mod) have a negative stealth mod, perhaps just having human (i.e, no stealth mod good or bad) is relatively "good" for Grf. Tua i really doubt is equal to kzn/hlf/dsd, but i don't have one to test.--3nki 13:57, 14 December 2011 (CST)

I'm trying to bring this page in line with what I know and my reasoning is below. I was giving GRF the benefit of the doubt but I agree it's probable they don't have a stealth mod (they seem to have no invisible mods at all, remarkably.) Orc have 5% failure rate on backstab, of that I am certain. Drow/elf/hie it's contingent on them to prove they have a modifier, their performance at lord doesn't seem remarkable compared to human. Tua have a very high modifier, as Lolthar demonstrated to me to my satisfaction. Demonseed I would hope are the best possible stealth race (+2 mod and small size with high dex/int) but nobody really plays them at lord, I'm just assuming.

Distinguishing between stealth and other modifiers which affect it

Performance in rogue skills is not the only indicator of stealth performance. Intelligence, dexterity and size also affect rogue skills to varying degrees but these are separate from the hidden natural stealth modifier, which is what I expect this page to track (I may be wrong). If this page wants to track overall stealth performance (especially at lord) then it should be rewritten to say so, and size, dex, int, damage mod and stealth mod should all be considered in a compound rating which basically translates to "rogue goodliness."

Most races do not have a stealth modifier. The stealth modifier is most plainly obvious when using backstab, as when it is rolled you get the message "it sees you coming from a mile away" and your backstab fails completely. From this you can clearly see some things - trolls have a -5% modifier, dragons are -20%. However, it doesn't measure positive stealth modifier in any way, and these positive stealth modifiers are extremely rare... most races which are considered "stealthy" are just neutral with above average intelligence/dex, which is sufficient to succeed on backstab all the time.

Other skills fail for other reasons - most importantly, slip and disengage are strongly affected by size and groupsize, as your ability to disappear in a crowd is considered extremely important there. "Nils" on assassinate and backstab occur at a flat rate regardless of race or class. From this we can see differences in orc and troll stealth performance, despite them having the same negative modifier - orcs have more dex, and also are medium instead of large, so they stab slightly better and slip significantly better.

All that said, I'm pretty sure that drow, elf, and high elf all have no stealth modifier. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. Surprise attack might be a better way to test this.

--Mekrith 17:48, 14 December 2011 (CST)